Question:
In regards to legalizing gay marriage, why have so many people forgotten the separation of Church and State?
AddieJN
2006-06-18 07:20:33 UTC
President Bush, fundamentalist Christians, and many other folks use the Bible to say that gay marriage is wrong. They want the U.S. Constitution to be ammended to say that only one man and one woman may legally marry. More than 35 states have already added this to their State Constitutions. On the other hand, there are many theologians who say that when the Bible was written, the references to homosexuallity were very different than acts of love and committment between two consenting adults. Research that has been done objectively has found over and over again, that there are no negative consequences to children who are raised by gay or lesbian parents.
I say if a person's religious beliefs forbid gay marriage, than they should go to a church that preaches the same. "Church-state separation does not mean hostility toward religion. Rather, it means that the government will remain neutral on religious questions, leaving decisions about God and faith in the hands of its citizens."
Sixteen answers:
rtanys
2006-07-01 17:59:58 UTC
Because it's more convenient for them to do so. They can't really justify a constitutional amendment regulating love and still claim to be the party of "smaller government". Christ said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged," yet all these funamentalist "Christians" do is judge. They just want to change the country to their liking. "Christianity" is full of hipocrytes. I doubt if Jesus would appreciate what they do in His name.
2016-05-20 04:13:33 UTC
Actually the word 'marriage' means two completely different and separate things. We use the word without specifying which we mean, and sometimes we do it on purpose. The first meaning of marriage is a religious institution. Two people stand up in a church and a minister mumbles some words over them, and then they are seen as having been joined by God. This is totally a religious matter, and every church has the right to decide who they'll marry and who not. The govt. should stay out of it. I agree, forcing churches to marry gays -would- be a violation of church and state. The other meaning of marriage is a legal partnership, allowing two people to be seen as one entity for economic purposes. They may own property jointly to avoid probate, they may co-mingle expenses, make certain decisions for one another etc. And that is a civil matter, a civil right, a right of citizenship. Churches should have no say about it. The benefits of being in an economic partnership should be available to all, regardless of gender or the intention to reproduce. Suppose two old widows decide to join and share their lives, to buy a house together and become a 'family'. No sex involved. Separate bedrooms. But they want to share their lives, to be there for one another, to execute each other's wills or 'living wills', etc. Why shouldn't they be allowed to use the same legal status as two people of the opposite sex? There's no sex involved here. They should have that right. As should gays. That has nothing to do with church/state.
percolated
2006-07-01 01:23:48 UTC
stanleys_2001 has the right idea. I would not have put it in such harsh terms, but essentially, that is how I feel. Holy matrimony is supposed to be between a man and a woman to establish a stable environment to raise a family. No matter who you choose to be in a permanent relationship with, you should have equal rights, but there should be a separate institution established for gay and lesbian folks.



Look, the whole reason we have laws is because people need guidelines on proper behavior. What do we base those guidelines upon? Sorry, but you cannot convince me it is anything other than religion. Without religion, people will do whatever they think they can get away with. That is the real problem in this country today.
illnovelist
2006-06-28 01:23:03 UTC
For Stanleys:



According to Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, marriage is: "the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage b : the mutual relation of married persons"



Stanleys, you are truly ignorant. And who the hell are you to deem what's normal and what's abnormal? Everyone's heard your tired reasoning: "tab A was designed to go into slot B"...blah blah blah.....You're the very reason why hatred is still an ongoing disease in this country. If everyone had your logic, women would still be burning bras for their right to vote, blacks would still be counted as half a vote, Jim Crow laws would still rule this country.



The questioner's question is valid: The government is NOT supposed to allow religion to sway their decision on people's rights. It seems to me you have forgotten that, apart from Freedom of Religion, there's also The 4th Amendment, which states: "protects the people from the government improperly taking property, papers, or people, without a valid warrant based on probable cause (good reason)." And this is the reason why these congressmen are trying to rewrite the constitution.



In no way does Gay Marriage destroy the sanctity of the ceremony or that of human values. If anything should be banned it should be the right to bear arms. You know how many lives are taken daily because of unregistered gun use in this country? But no, you're right, Stanleys, two guys f******* is much worse than a six-year-old shooting a fellow student at school....LOL...



The American Government has NEVER been for the people. It's composed of nothing but greedy politicians who create laws that benefit themselves. Let us not forget that most of the constitution signers all owned slaves. How can you trust men to pass laws, granting freedom when they themselves are restricting others from theirs?



Aria



*The illnovelist*
Pam M
2006-06-30 21:39:12 UTC
Amen to your own answer to this question. The government should remain neutral on all religious issues.

That is what freedom of religion means. Without a separation of church and state, you no longer have a Democracy. And this country was formed for the purpose of FREEDOM of religion for one thing. If we had a Supreme Court that was not biased toward whatever Bush's agenda is, they would throw all of the amendments the states have ratified out as unconstitutional. Which of course they are!
sojourner.fathom
2006-06-30 03:36:51 UTC
Actually, If you look at the constitution there is no "separation of church and state". That is a phrase that the supreme court took out of context from a letter written by Benjamin Franklin and used in a decision. actually must of the framers of the constitution were christian, and 90%of the constitution is derived from Biblical scripture. not to mention that the term freedom of religion written of in the constitution is referring to freedom of denomination, (within Christianity), to prevent what England did concerning the Church of England. The supreme court changed the definition of "religion" in 1963. Not that all people should be required to believe the same thing, (besides, That's not something that can be controlled); People will believe what they believe! But the constitution was actually written with the intent of prohibiting making laws based along denominational lines.There were even church services held in the capitol building until the congregation became too large. Not to mention that both houses of congress and the supreme court are all opened with prayer at the beginning of each session.
Preacher
2006-06-18 07:34:47 UTC
Separation of church and state is a myth. Throughout history it has never occurred---even today. God is the author of human government. This desire to have church and state sewparate is the desire by men to be separate from God and go their own way. This is the reason why the world is in such pitiful shape today. Of couse, the extreme opposite is worse---government by religion, which is a theocracy. There is a happy medium between a totally atheistic governent and a theocracy. It is called muutual respect for the commandments of God. Legalized gay marriages are outside the commandments of God, and such are what occur when decisions about God and faith are left in the hands of citizens. When man is left to his own devices he will always choose what is right in his own eyes, rather than what is right in the eyes of God.
Jessica
2006-06-18 07:25:42 UTC
I truly don't understand why religious people are so upset about gay marriage. Frankly, it's none of their business. If someone is part of their religion and is against gay marriage, then obviously, they shouldn't get one. :) I'm straight, but I think everyone has a right to be happy the way they are happy.
2006-06-18 07:36:21 UTC
See?



It drives me crazy when people defend their position... with catch phrases.



You have no idea with the "SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEANS".



It does not mean people in a state can't go to church... all it means is:



NO CHURCH CAN BE A STATE. (Like the vatican is)...



That's it. It doesn't mean State buildings can't have a STAR OF DAVID or you can't have a representation of the 10 comandments or you can't say the word "GOD" in the Pledge of allegence.



LOOK... You don't know to be religious... to know that "GAY MARRIAGE" doesn't exist. Marriage... by it's very defination can NOT be gay... That's like a BLACK & WHITE RAINBOW or MIDNIGHT SUNSHINE.



LOOK... just look at a MAN & look at a woman... notice how NATURE intened "tab a" to go into "slot b"... and how children are brought into the word. THAT'S NATURAL, the 2 SLOT B's or 2 TAB A... is not!



Why should we PERVERT an institution that has GOT IT RIGHT for CENTURES? Hint: that's why we have special olympics... and why we don't DILUTE the real OLYMPICS.



Why change the BOYS SCOUTS... to make them admit GIRLS!

That's why we have the GIRL SCOUTS.



Look... I understand... you love who you love. But if you're not a MAN AND A WOMAN... then you can't marry. That's not why marriage was created. Don't mess up our institution... make one of your own. If you're really intested in the SAME RIGHTS, work on another legal status with the same rights!



However... they insist that we consider them as NORMAL instead of the FREAKS they are. You will never be accepted as NORMAL... because you're not. GET OVER IT... and be thankful for the acceptance you already had.



AND ALL THIS... is not at all related to RELIGION. Because you don't have to be RELIGIOUS to know "GAY MARRIAGE" is WRONG. You just have to have somewhat of a brain.
Daylynn456
2006-07-01 21:56:09 UTC
Yeah so..."God created man and woman to go forth and multiply"? Then why infertility, tubal ligations, and vasectomy?



If I am correct the bible also states that marriage is "death do us part" and one of the ten commandments is "Do not covet thy neighbors wife". Today we openly accept divorce and cheating so hey why not same sex marriage?
bib
2006-07-01 20:37:47 UTC
i agree with STANLEYS!!! God created man and woman to reproduce and multiply. How can two of the same sex do that???????? and dont tell me about adoption either...were talking about reproducing. Anyway, society has tried and tried to convince us that you cant help who you love but you can because theres a difference between love and lust. my personal opinion is that homosexual relationships are about lust and not love...why else would you want to be involved in something so wrong??? The bible says "let every MAN have his own WIFE" and vice versa, not everyman has his own man and every woman her own wife. I'm not judging homosexual relationships...the bible already has!
poeticnay
2006-06-29 09:45:09 UTC
Because it is convenient to forget that, when it damages your point. I am a married heterosexual female, and I feel that if two women or two men want to commit themselves to one another, why not? Heterosexuals should not be the only ones to have to suffer. lol
thmslln3
2006-07-01 08:05:09 UTC
thats simple. because the vast majority of VOTERS religion's morally object to gay marrige. so since politicians want the majority to vote for them, they lean twards what will get them more votes.
2006-06-18 07:29:21 UTC
the government wants you to forget about church and state, they are 2 seperate entities, and should not be joined in any way
Nightchild
2006-06-18 07:30:22 UTC
when this country was founded it was "one nation under god" and thats qouted from the pledge plus look at the coins the usa ones all say "in god we trust" sorry



p.s. im not against gay marriges just answering your questions

im Not gay either tho
Informed
2006-06-22 07:21:10 UTC
You missed the secular reasons why people are against the current process and campaign to grant marriage to gays and lesbians. The first is that the current campaign will not ensure that gays and lesbians will actually enjoy the privileges that heterosexual couples enjoy. The second is that the current campaign is anti-democratic and anti-constitutional and anti-eglitarian.



This isn't about and doesn't involve the 1st amendment. This is about the democratic, egalitarian and constitutional origins of our country.



There are several secular and non-religious reasons for rejecting the current process to secure "Marriage" or "Civil Unions" for gay and lesbians. I have summarized the major reasons below. For more indepth analysis, see the reference below.



I.Why the Current Campaign to Establish Gay

Marriages Is Anti-Democratic and Anti-Constitutional





Our government was founded upon the premise that “Governments are instituted among men [and women], deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.” The current attempt to change the scope and meaning of the US Constitution in regards to 'gay marriages' by side stepping the amendment process will--in the end--jeopardize everyone's freedom. The attempt to expand the current tradition and meaning of marriage to include same gendered individuals through either a judicial pronouncement of a single state or federal judge--or a decision by a “State” or an Appellate Court, and/or through the edicts of several local politicians--should be seen as an attack on our constitutional democracy from within.



Seeking to expand the rights of a few, by the few, by trouncing on the rights of the governed, should be seen as an act similar to those which occasioned the creation of the “Declaration of Independence.”



It is our position that expanding the rights of gays and lesbians to enter into marriage should be done through the amendment process that has been used for over 200 years. Seeking to side step the ‘constitutional’ process in favor of expediency is a sign not of enlightenment, patriotism, nor constitutional fidelity, but of hubris—of pride and arrogance. Historical and constitutional integrity requires all Americans to work to defeat the present attempt to expand the U.S. Constitution by the dictates of the few whether or not an individual believes that granting “gay marriages’ is a just cause.



As stated above and worth mentioning again, it is our position here that the real issue is not whether gays and lesbians should be allowed to marry. The real issues are (1) did the original white male voters, who approved the original articles of the Constitution, mean to include gays and lesbians in the institution of marriage and, if not, (2) did subsequent voters expand marriage to include gays and lesbians and, if not, (3) what are the proper means for expanding the institution of marriage to include gays and lesbians?



As Americans, we should all believe in the use of the “proper means for a proper end.” The proper means for expanding the rights we have under the US Constitution is to submit such changes to the American people via a proposed Constitutional Amendment. We believe that the US Constitution should only be changed with the consent of the governed as is required in our democracy.



The current campaign to enact 'gay marriages' without allowing all Americans to exercise their right to vote is counter-productive to maintaining our constitutional form of democracy, divisive to society, a waste of tax payers' dollars and a frivolous use of the time and skills of our elected and judicial officials. We believe that our elected and judicial officials should be focusing their attention on more urgent and pressing matters.



How did Americans of previous generations expand and change our Constitution and handle differences of opinions, beliefs, and ideologies? Do we have a blue print or a successful model or template to follow? We believe we do!



When African-Americans and White Americans wanted to secure the rights of African-Americans as free individuals under the US Constitution, they put forth a constitutional amendment. When African-Americans and White Americans wanted to ensure that African-Americans and White Americans could enter into marriage and enjoy all the legal rights of other Americans, they passed a constitutional amendment. When Americans of all races and ethnicities and genders wanted to secure the rights of women to vote, they championed another constitutional amendment. And when Americans from all races and ethnicities sought to reestablish the rights of African-Americans in the 1950s and 1960s to vote and to have equal access to our social institutions, they pursued legal action based directly on those same amendments that the American public had passed almost 100 years earlier.



If there are Americans who wish to expand the institution of marriage and the notion of civil rights to include the right to marry whomever an individual so chooses, they should, then, use the same historically tried and historically proven means for enacting those changes. They should propose their own Constitutional Amendment. Until then, we need to honor the sacrifices of our forebears and defend the Constitution as it now stands from the few who have chosen to usurp the power of the governed for an idea and cause that they consider worthy.





II.Why Changing the Definition of Marriage Will Not

Guarantee that Gay and Lesbian Couples Will Secure

the Privileges that Current Married Couples Enjoy



A second reason why we stand oppose to the current campaign to promote “gay marriages” is the propaganda that some advocates are using to persuade the public to the rightness of this cause.



Many gay marriage advocates have cited the need to end discrimination against homosexuals as it relates to inheritance taxes and employee benefits. They argue that homosexuals should have the same ‘rights’ as heterosexuals married couples and that approving ‘gay marriages’ will end this type of discrimination. As will be discussed below, these types of arguments for “gay marriages” are legal fantasies and “myths” that ultimately harm the cause for which these advocates are promoting.



The so-called rights to which they have alluded are not ‘rights’ guaranteed by state or federal constitutions. They are privileges that state and federal legislative bodies have granted with the passage of health and insurance and pension regulations, tax codes, and estate and probate laws. Those legislative bodies can suspend all of these privileges even if there was a constitutional right to marry.



For example, the so-called marital exemption from Federal Transfer Tax is enshrined in the IRS Tax Code and not the US Constitution. What Congress giveth; Congress can taketh away!



In short, the current campaign to grant gays and lesbians the right to marry is wrong because it is anti-democratic and elitist. It is also flawed in it process as the privileges that it seeks for gays and lesbians will not be secured through the legalizing of marriages for gays and lesbians. The current attempt is misdirected. What should happen and how it show happen is listed below.



Instead of continuing the current debate regarding gay or same gendered marriages with its mixture of facts and fiction, myths and reality, we are proposing instead three separate debates on expanding privileges that are currently granted to married individuals and two separate amendments. We believe that by separating the various arguments and issues surrounding "gay marriages" into separate talking and debating points, we will allow greater clarity so that the general public will come to fully understand and appreciate what are the foundational issues that are at stake and the various alternative solutions or outcomes for the same.



It is our belief that the limitations of the current campaign to expand the definition of marriage is misdirected and buries foundational and core issues regarding the expansion, reduction or elimination of the following privileges granted by federal and state legislators to some, but not to all:



I.Group 1: Benefits and Privileges



A.Three Issues That Need Discussion and Debate

1.Employer and Government Benefits and Privileges

2.Inheritance and Estate Tax Exemptions

3.Intestate and Next of Kin Designations and Status





B.Options for Remediation of the Above Felt Disparities



As we argued above regarding the first group of issues, there are currently two ways of adjudicating and mediating any perceived or real discrepancies between married and non-married individuals.



1.Personal and Individual Options



The first is through the use of presently available legal, insurance and benefits' instruments. In "Chart 2: Alternative Legal Means to Obtain Privileges and Benefits" presented above, we have listed the most common and easily assessable ways to alternatively obtain those or similar privileges.



2.Legislative Options



The second way of adjudicating and mediating these perceived and/or real discrepancies is through the introduction of new laws and regulations by federal and state legislators that expand, reduce or eliminate these taxes and/or exemptions. As we have shown above, it is the state and federal government that have granted these exemptions and privileges in the first place. Consequently, it is the same who can modify or eliminate them.



This is not to say that politicians as a group will have the fortitude, courage and will to responsibly present and discuss these issues in a forthright manner. (For example, it is easier to speak of expanding the Federal Estate Transfer Tax Exemption than to speak of eliminating inheritance and estate taxes.) What we are saying is that these privileges and intestate assumptions are wholly within the province of current state and federal legislators to adjudicate and/or remedy. We have proposed on pages 12 to 14 above that federal and state legislators pass "designated individual" statues or similar legislation where non-married individuals would be able to hold alternative "next of kin" designations and accompanying privileges to parallel those that the "spouse" has in regards to intestate matters and medical notification of "next of kin" decisions.



In addition, we believe that two issues need to be addressed by the constitutional amendment process.





II.Group 2: Constitutional Amendments



We believe that a prolong process that engendered multiple, in depth, debates and forums needs to be promoted so that the American public will be able to clearly understand the issues, concerns and consequences involved in redefining "marriage" as an individual right and in expanding "parental rights" to encompass non-biological and non-adoptive "parents:" that is, step-parents, cohabitating partners, grandparents, uncles, aunts and siblings.



In regards to the former, one of those consequences would be the acceptance of polygamy, plural (or group) marriages, incestuous marriages, and not just same gendered marriages. We believe that this is the central and foundational issue that should be openly and fairly debated.



In regards to the latter, a whole host of "what ifs" would need to be discussed. A primary consideration would be whether the rights and freedom of the biological or adoptive parents would be severely curtained or limited such as the freedom to move residency and to accept work promotions and transfers at will.



A.Marriage as an Individual's Constitutional Right

Amendment



We believe that the question of marital rights should not be or cannot be confined and limited to only monogamous, minded homosexuals and heterosexuals. We believe that passing a "Constitutional Right to Marry" amendment would mean that individuals are free to marry the adult or adults of their choosing--whether they are homosexual or heterosexual, monogamous or polygamous, incline to single marital units or plural marital units (plural marriages), non-incestuous or incestuous marriages. If it is an individual right to be protected by the Constitution, then gender, numbers and biological relationships are beside the point.



By accepting the traditional amendment process for adjudicating the desires of a significant part of our citizens to expand the definition of marriage, the general public would have the opportunity to debate, to learn and to inform one another of both the positive and negative ramifications of redefining marriage as an individual's right. This process would allow the various segments of our population with differing and competing interests to have the opportunity to discuss and share their concerns and their findings on what would be some of the unintended consequences of enacting such changes. For example, would the passage of the "right to marriage" amendment increase or decrease employers' health and pension benefits expenses; would it increase or decrease government welfare and benefits expenses; and would it create a net result of having more persons with or without either public or private health and welfare benefits?





B.Constitutional Right to Visitation for Non-Parental

Individuals Amendment



As with the "Right to Marriage" amendment, we believe that it is in the best interest of the American electorate to have such changes debated and explored in the public arena by means of the legislative process to enact a constitutional amendment to secure such rights for individuals. There appears to be a significant number of the population who are in favor of expanding "parental rights" to include the rights of visitation and notification to persons who are not a child's biological or adoptive parents. Alternatively, there could be a campaign to broaden the definition of the "child's rights" to receive visitations by extended family members, stepparents and former cohabitating partners of the child's parents. At this point in the debate, most of the variables and the consequences have not been fully explored.



While we are moved when we hear the heartbreaking anecdotal stories of the grandparents, adult siblings, aunts and uncles, step-parents and others who are prevented from visiting, communicating and maintaining their relationships with the children they love, we must, however, base our decision upon reasonable analysis of the constitutional, social and economical issues and outcomes that such an expansion of parental rights would engender.



For example, how would the expansion of parental visitation rights to individuals who are not the biological or adoptive parents restrict or limit or interfere with the biological and adoptive parents' 14th amendment, and possibly 1st and 4th amendments, rights? Would it limit the parents' freedom to move and buy and sell property because it would infringe on the non-parents' rights of visitation? Would it limit or interfere with the parents' rights to control the speech and the exercise of religion in their own home by forcing them to accept the delivery of political and religious materials for their child or children from non-parental individuals with different or conflicting political, economic, social, moral and religious values?



These and other considerations must and should be fully explored by the American public before we can ensure an informed vote of the electorate on these issues. In short, we need to know what rights parents would be giving up in order to secure the rights of visitation and notification for non-parental figures.



Again, it is our belief that following the traditional political process for amending both federal and state constitutions is the best and most transparent means for giving the general public the opportunity to debate, to learn and to inform one another of both the positive and negative ramifications of redefining or expanding the right of visitation to non-parental figures.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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